Of course, some people would question whether there is a sufficient grasp of the English language in New Joizy or Lon Gyland. Rob, law student Cambridge

As someone who has taken the TOEFL I agree with you on the tests limited ability to truly reflect English proficiency in the scores. The test is ridiculously basic and since all answers are multiple choice (except for the essay) there is a 25% chance you will have a correct answer even if you don't understand the question being posed.Thus, Penn should find a more reliable method for examining the English skills of its prospective students. That said, I strongly disagree with your statement that "This is a worthwhile effort for no other reason than because it makes 'So, where are you from?' conversations much more interesting". I will be joining Penn next fall as an international graduate student and one of the reasons for choosing Penn was precisely its large percentage of international students. I believe this international flavor contributes a lot more than a mere "where are you from?" conversation. It enriches class discussions and exposes students to a global perspective by contrasting opinions that are inevitably permeated with a cultural factor. G, Lawyer Non-english speaking country

As an undergraduate, I've often ran across TA's with limited English proficiency. And as a non-native English speaker myself, I wholeheartedly agree that the TOEFL is a joke. But there is a much better way to judge someone's English proficiency: interviews! I recognize that international students might not have the time or money to fly here just to have an interview, but Penn could surely arrange phone interviews with prospective TA's etc....sure its not perfect, but its better that out current system! C to the Tina, student upenn

Let's dissect G's argument here: Having international students is good because it brings an international perspective. International = good because International = good? I'm sure you could find a better reason than that. Roman, Forums troll Penn

No, Roman, that is not my argument at all. If you take a couple of minutes and actually read the post, then you will see that my argument is basically that different perspectives enrich discussions. This applies both to class and out of class discussions. If you take a minute of your time to interact with any of the many international students at Penn you will realize that cultural background oftentimes influences ones opinions and views on a given subject. Hence the importance of having an international presence in the student body. G

G said: "If you take a minute of your time to interact with any of the many international students at Penn you will realize that cultural background oftentimes influences ones opinions and views on a given subject." I say: Just because an international student has influenced my views on a given subject does not mean that my views have improved. Your argument does not hold until you show that influence=good. Pat

Ok well to start when G said: "...you will realize that cultural background oftentimes influences ones opinions and views on a given subject," S/he was not saying that international students influence YOUR views on a given subject. Rather, they influence the international student's views (though i understand the confusing caused by the lack of proper antecedant). Therefore, the argument holds as follows international->diversity diversity->good ergo: international->good. Now, if you want to debate whether diversity is improtant in academic discussion and debate, go right ahead and stop nitpicking an english as a second language student's grasp of written language. PS I'd really like to see someone state that diversity is not good for academia. different pat

G, I don't think Eric is saying that the singular reason we're in favor of international students at Penn is so that we can repeat the phrase "so where are you from?" all the time. I could do that to the mouse/cockroach life in my house if I really wanted to. I believe there was a typo. The sentence should say "if for no other reason than..." Also, Eric's column doesn't imply that international students' views aren't wanted or needed at Penn. Of course they are; we're all in favor of a diverse, dynamic environment where we can be exposed to as many ideas as possible. After all, that's what university is about. The problem that Eric is addressing is one of basic communication. It affects international grad students and the university itself just as negatively as it affects the kids they TA. TOEFL, as you, I, and he agree simply isn't enough to justify fluency and that's the central argument of this column. It measures one's ability to diagram a sentence in English. That doesn't translate into the ability to fully engage in the classroom, understand graduate level lectures, and teach undergraduate subjects at a place like Penn. That's the simple truth. I think you're reading too much into it and getting unnecessarily offended. lurker, student, general lurker swamp

Well put, different Pat. But it still depends on what you mean by diversity. If you're talking about diversity as in people who speak different languages together in one place just for the sake of being in one place and still celebrating their differences, then that's not necessarily good (although a number of 'Progressive' academics will tell you otherwise, and then proceed to compare you with Hitler). If you're talking about diversity as in people from around the world working alongside one another in a civilized country with the hope that they'll come away with 1) the idea that Western democracy and capitalism work wonderfully, and possibly 2) the idea that ethnic/cultural/international divides are not set in stone. Roman, Forums troll Under the bridge

My very unworthy namesake (Pat): Your interpretation of G's argument goes as follows: Cultural background influences one's opinion. International students have a cultural background. Therefore, cultural background influences international students' opinions. If this is your argument, then fine. I agree completely. If you want to say something else though, come up with an argument and we can discuss. Pat

Good. Then we both agree with G (except for his or her being a little touchy regarding the original article's language - namely "This is a worthwhile effort for no other reason than because it makes 'So, where are you from?' conversations much more interesting".) the different pat

This may just be my ignorance talking, but we Americans also have a cultural background. I don't suppose then that that's what makes having international students on campus good. After all, if we've already got what they have... Roman, Forums troll In the dungeon

.....your students should be able to understand what you say. Its that simple. People pay a good deal of money to attend Penn and they shouldn't have to struggle to understand what someone is trying to teach them. International students and diversity are tremendously important to a university such as Penn, but let the "international" TA's be given some kind of test that shows they can communicate their knowledge when they speak. If you teach.....

Both TOEFL and IELTS (I understand IELTS is an International English Language Testing System similar to TOEFL), are identical in measuring English proficiency and are equally and widely used by universities. It will be interesting to see if the results from these two tests have any correlation to performance in the class room. Does anyone know of any research on this? Alan R Mitage, Accountant Casino