Carter partially attributes this phenomenon to the disconnectedness" and "alienation" black students feel in a predominantly white school," Yeah, it's because of "alienation," and affirmative action policies that let in academically unprepared blacks have absolutely nothing to do with it, right Mr. Carter? How about addressing the *real* problem here. If the school admits tons of students with sub-1100 SAT scores and put them in the same classrooms as people who scored in the 1400-1500s, is it really a shock that a lot of the sub-1100 scorers will do very poorly and drop out? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Penn shouldn't practice affirmative action; however, if Penn is going to admit en masse blacks with very low SAT scores, it should take the measures necessary to get them up to speed before school starts. Blaming their poor retention on not being able to cope in a majority white environment is an insult to blacks who *are* able to perform (funny how no one says that Asian students at Penn are "alienated" or unable to cope in a majority white environment -- but perhaps that's because Asian retention is pretty damn good, what with Penn admitting very few, if any, unqualified Asians). anon student

Anon: Why in the world do you presume that Penn admits "tons" of students with sub-1100 SAT scores? Your use of the word "tons" implies a thousand or several thousand students with such scores. That is ridiculous. If I recall the admissions report distributed to members of the Alumni Secondary Schools Committee, the number of students admitted with those kind of SAT scores can be counted on two hands. The number actually enrolled was even less. We are not told the race of these applicants so I don't know whether any are African American. I suspect you have hit on one of the reasons some African American students feel alienated at Penn. Some of us presume our fellow students are inadequate to the tasks at hand. I regret to say I arrived at Penn with such preconceived notions, and I am happy to say I left Penn without them. I wish you the same good fortune. Alan Thomas '81

Why do all of you intellectuals read these posts and swear by them? Sometimes you have to read in between the lines so to speak. In this particular case, tons doesn't really means tons, and so on. Get a grip! Anon student makes some very good points. Senior@Penn

Anon: 1) Be careful with the assumption that black students are categorically lower performers. I'm a former, and African-American, Penn student - and I was a National Merit Finalist who scored 1450. Several of my friends (who are African-American, African, and West Indian) scored highly, too. But 2) Paper-and-pencil standardized tests are neither the only nor the most important predictor of future success. First, they reflect one's parents' economic status more than one's aptitude. Second, they test for a very specific and very linear type of intelligence. It effectively excludes poor folks of all colors from the upper echelons of the academy. So the solution is not to eliminate Affirmative Action - it's to *supplement* it with academic and advisory support programming once students matriculate. Or perhaps to include considerations of class into the existing Affirmative Action infrastructure. Or both. 3) I find it interesting that Affirmative Action is often met with such vehement indignance, while athlete-conscious, geography-conscious, and alumni-conscious admissions standards - all of which are critical criteria for the formulation of elite undergraduate classes - somehow fall by the wayside. If you don't support preferences, fine - but be consistent. 4) I personally advocate the Texas Ten Percent Plan (look it up). Within a year of its implementation, many African-American and Hispanic students with LOWER SAT scores, but high GPAs (as indicated by their class rank), OUTPERFORMED their higher-SAT-earning peers. Why? Because the persistence they'd learned in high school translated into collegiate success. They proved that success in higher education correlates more closely with success in secondary education than with a one-day, three-hour test. Before you write, do some reading anon: 1) Lani Guinier's "Who's Qualified" and 2) Amy Gutman's "How Affirmative Action Can (and Cannot) Work Well" and 3) Any information on Uri Treisman's landmark workshops for African-American college students in calculus are good starting points. Assumptions, Transitioning Philadelphia

Did anyone ever even *consider* that there might be some unqualified whites at this school (i.e., rich, dumb legacy admits)? Why is it presumed that the only unqualified people at PENN are African Americans? It makes sense that "tons" of these students have sub-1100 SATs considering that they make up such a *huge* number in each incoming class (about 130-140). Yeah, that must be the reason. Penn Dude, Penn Dude/White Liberal Van Pelt

If memory serves, about 100 or so black students matriculate every year. 78% retention means about 22 drop over the course of four years. Is that because those 22 are unqualified? Making no presumptions about anything, I'd say that they're more likely to unqualified than the 78 that don't drop, and the 95% of everybody else who doesn't drop. Now, why is the ratio of black students who are *more likely* to be unqualified higher than the ratio of everybody else who is *more likely* to be unqualified? I'll hazzard a guess that it is, in fact, because the admissions office makes it a point to be less stringent in its standards in admitting black students, given that disproportionately few apply and that the administration likes to tout the 'diversity' of the undergraduate body. Lower the standards a bit, and more unqualified people will make it through. Simple mathematics. Now, to Penn's credit, it does have pre-freshmen programs for these students who it thinks will be more likely to need 'extra help' to make it through their four years here. To my understanding, students who have lower 'socioeconomic' backgrounds (both black and white) are invited to start classes about six weeks early, where they get a feel for the work required in a college setting and have extra time to get accustomed to the university before beginning their freshmen year. Not surprisingly, the ratio of 'underrepresented minorities' (black, hispanic, american indian?) in this group was a bit higher than Penn's overall ethnic composition. (I speak from experience, having worked in the dorm they stayed in and watched them move in). And yes, there are quite a few recruited athletes as well. So here we've got first hand evidence that of the black/minority students that Penn admits, a higher ratio may not be entirely 'qualified' for college. Now, as for the people of color who feel 'alienated' and 'disconnected', well, frankly that's their own problem. They are ethnic minorities. By definition, there are more people in the Real World who are different from them than there are people who are the same. Being able to get along with, and work alongside, whitey is just something that people of color who expect to have successful careers will need to learn to do. Now, if they haven't got the emotional maturity to understand that simply fact, and/or overcome their own prejudices about whites and 'get out of their comfort zone' as a former Penn president used to say, well, then, they probably aren't the kind of people that should be allowed into Penn. This is not to say that there aren't any latent racist sentiments on the other side of the picture. But we've got the good fortune to live in a time when arbitrary anti-black sentiments are not socially acceptible in polite conversation. Most white folk who may have any preconceptions about their black classmates generally learn to reserve judgement and allow the facts of the situation to assert themselves in their minds. Those who don't at least have the common courtesy to hold their tongues. Those who can't hold their tongues are equally as immature as the black students who drop out because too many of their classmates can get visibly sunburned, and also don't belong at Penn. Back to the point: Affirmative action --> Lower standards --> more dropouts. People who drop because it's too white around here were probably not serious about their education to begin with: good riddance. People who drop because of actual racist sentiments they encounter from the people who don't hold their tongues: I claim that they are few in number if there are any at all, and I am confident that in fifty years, there won't be any, period. Roman, Student Penn