maybe penn should become a closed campus? would that be safer? closed?

Penn Can't become a closed campus because it doesn't own the roads and walkways that travel through the campus (I.E. Locust Walk, Woodland Walk, 35th, 36th, 37th, etc.). Even though they are closed to vehicular traffic, they are still public roads and highways. Their are also still individual properties on Penn's Campus that are not owned by the University. Josh, Grad Student Philadelphia

I couldn't agree more, Josh. Your points relate more to the dozens of other victimizations last semester than they do to this incident, which seems mainly a case of black-on-black neighborhood crime. Although, there are plenty of Peen kids who could have been driving a nice car too... As long as you have "easy targets" and criminals in very close proximity, Penn kids are going to keep getting victimized. It's an open campus, and we can't screen criminals at the gates, so we're left dealing with the "easy target" part of the equation. Adding more police certainly makes us tougher targets, and Im all for that. We live in a free society, though, not a police state. The police cant be around all the time. In fact, the majority of the time they will not be there. The main job of police in this country is following up on crimes, not physically preventing crimes. Dont think Im belittling the police's role- the fact that criminals know they will be investigated and likely caught by the police goes a long way toward keeping us safe. It's just unreasonable for any student on this campus to believe that the police will EVER be present at the moment of victimization. That's just the logistics of the situation. Individually, students need to make themselves harder targets. Situational awareness- spotting a potential threat and getting somewhere safer asap- is our best bet. A thug will usually pass over the sharp-looking kid who makes eye contact and will seek someone more oblivious to prey on. Unfortunately, most Penn students do not have that mindset and never will. 90% of the people at this school are not tough at all. Think about the kids who sit around you in class every day! West Philly thugs are not going to stop messing with us any time soon. As to the whole students packing guns argument, the student's who would pack guns are generally the ones who need guns the least. People who are safety conscious enough to get a concealed carry permit are not likely to be found lollygagging on 41st street in the wee hours. So I doubt a change in Penn's weapon policy would do much to stop crime in most cases. In a few cases, though, having a gun could potentially save a kid's life, as in Josh's case. For that reason, Im totally behind Cory and Josh in letting students be armed if they have their permits. It will never happen, but it's a nice thought. The general population has built up too much stigma and ignorance around the word "gun" in the last 30 years for that kind of policy to fly at any college. Anyway, crime is here to stay at Penn. Just be smart and as tough as you can. Zach, Penn Student

Here's a novel idea: carry regardless of school policy. There's not a snowflakes chance in hell that Penn or any other area college will change its firearms policy. The worst they can do is kick you out. If you are legally licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Pennsylvania, it is NOT a crime to carry on college property regardless of college policy. I myself am an area college student and treat these policies for what they are, policies, not laws. Penn (and pretty much every other area school) has proven itself incapable of protecting its students. The responsibility therefore rests, as it always has, on the students shoulders. Get a gun, get trained in it's use and the legal use of force and get packing. Marc, Student Philadelphia

A few comments on the rash of violent crime on Penn's campus and the entire weapon's on campus debate. Lets start by saying I don't believe Mari Oishi could have avoided being injured by carrying a concealed firearm due to the fact that her injury was the result of a stray round and not the result of being attacked directly. However, the general University policy prohibiting students and faculty from having firearms on campus contributed to the robber being present in the first place Penn's campus and its students are targeted by criminals for two reasons: First is that the students are perceived as rich; the second reason is the very anti-self defense attitude that is so pervasive on today's liberal campuses (I.E. the idea that you should just give in and hope they don't hurt you invites victimization). These two factors make the campus a target-rich environment for criminals. Let's look at why people commit crimes. People commit crimes for a myriad of reasons; the most prevalent reasons though are power over the victim and a fundamental sense of laziness (I.E. easy money). Consider for a moment that if you're robbed and the criminal gets away with sixty dollars, he has just made more money in five minutes than he would have working an honest eight hour shift at McDonalds. The answer though is not to feel sorry for the criminal, or make excuses for his behavior, but instead it's to fight back and say "this behavior is unacceptable and I won't give in". Fighting back in this case is literal. One must also realize that violent crime not only takes money from the victim. Beyond simply the physical injuries a victim might sustain, theirs also an immeasurable impact on the victim emotionally that can last a life time. Often victims that simply give in to the offender suffer a feeling of violation, subjugation, a reduced sense of self worth, fear, anger, depression and so forth. These feelings can affect the victim's entire outlook and personality. Whereas victims that successfully fight back, or fight off an attack, often feel empowered with an increased sense of self determination. Though very professional, Penn's police department isn't capable of being everywhere at all times. Nor are they responsible for protecting individuals from crime. It was stated in an earlier post that the police are only responsible for investigating crime after it occurs and apprehending the offender if possible; this is absolutely correct. It's the individual's responsibility to protect themselves during a crime and it's been shown consistently that firearms are the most effective tool when it comes to self defense. Effective preparation and self defense is even more important as more and more students live off campus in the surrounding neighborhoods where the protection of surveillance cameras and Campus police are less available or not available at all. There is also a significant social benefit of law abiding citizens carrying weapons and that is deterrence. There are two types of deterrence theories which work hand in hand ‰Ã?"General Deterrence and Specific Deterrence. Specific Deterrence stops a specific individual from committing an offense; General Deterrence is the effect of a measure that discourages the population as a whole from committing an offense (I.E. putting a criminal in jail specifically deters him from reoffending; the threat of going to jail keeps everyone else from offending in the first place). Citizens carrying concealed handguns create a "General Deterrence" against crime. In that criminals don't want to confront a victim that might be armed. The simple possibility of confronting an armed victim is often enough to deter most criminals. An example of the specific deterrent effect of carrying a concealed weapon can be illustrated in a personal anecdote. I've carried a concealed handgun for almost ten years. In that time I have only needed to pull my weapon once (this includes having spent a year in Bosnia with the Army where I carried an automatic weapon). I was wearing a tuxedo and walking back to my car from the Academy of Music. A group of young thugs started following me, calling me names and demanding money. Continuing to walk and being followed I repeatedly told them I didn't want any trouble and to leave me alone. Finally when I felt I was outnumbered and their was no way to avoid being attacked, I drew my pistol, pointed it at the leader of the group and yelled "I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE ME ALONE, NOW GET OUT OF HERE". Facing a revolver and the reality that I wasn't going to be an easy victim, the group fled (quickly I might add). The result was I wasn't mugged or hurt and no one was shot. The simple display of my pistol deterred the thugs and ended the entire encounter. The point is, being armed doesn't mean you're out looking for a fight. In fact, I've found that when I am armed I go to extra lengths to avoid situations. Being armed simply means being prepared. You don't buy health insurance because you ARE sick, you buy it in case you become sick. Carrying a weapon is the same idea ‰Ã?" it's an incredibly effective insurance policy against violent crime. As the proverb goes "Walk softly but carry a big stick". Whether you choose to carry a weapon or not, here are some points to help protect yourself while on campus ~ * Travel in groups of at least two as often as possible. If that's not available, use Penn's escort service. I.E., avoid being an easy target in the first place. * Don't wear you're Ipod, etc. when you're walking ‰Ã?" keep your ears open. * Know what's going on around you. Keep looking around and know when someone is following you or if you're approaching a potentially dangerous area. * Keep your hands free and don't burden yourself with too many bags. If you have a laptop, carry it in your backpack and keep your backpack on both shoulders so it's easier to run and can't be ripped off your back easily. If you must use your cell phone, keep it in your holder and use a headset with the volume low. Finally an interesting end note is that the university does have the right to set it's own disciplinary policies for employees and students with regard to firearms on the campus and can legally prevent others from bringing firearms into university owned buildings, however they cannot prevent CCW licensed non-students/employees from bringing weapons onto the outside areas of the campus (such as Walnut st., Spruce st. Locust walk, Woodland walk, 36th st, 37th st, etc.) because these areas consist of either public roads or public easements. Josh, Grad Student Philadelphia

My reply to you "poverty = crime" is this: Because none of my relatives were or are incarcerated doesn't mean we weren't poor. Yes, my gas and electric was turned off when I was a child. No, I didn't have health insurance either. Oh, and I did go to an inner city public school too. The difference is this; I had the intestinal fortitude to make something of myself. There are millions like me too. The people you are talking about don't give a rats ass about anything but themselves. They're just plain self-centered. Your claim that just because people are poor means that they are more likely to commit a crime is lame at best and is a slap in the face to millions of poor people who never even think about mugging someone. So, you're advocating less time in jail when they are adults and treating them? How on earth do you "TREAT" a violent offender who has no regard for any other human being but himself? Guess what? I don't know why I'm spending my precious time replying to your "The Grapes of Wrath" jibberish. And, YOU ARE making excuses for these guys. If you do agree that no one is teaching these guys anything, I have a suggestion. Why not devote the rest of your life teaching them to be solid, hard working people who want to contribute to society instead of taking advantage of the weak and elderly????? Oh, since you don't want to be a rapper...I do know what you want to be..... "A BASKETBALL PLAYER! Reply to "Poverty=crime

Tad: I couldn't agree more...being poor does not make someone load a pistol and fire it. If you believe that you need to read a book because you are a moron...it's both comedic and appalling that members of the Penn community continue to justify and excuse such wastes of human life....it's personally reassuring to know that all of these useless criminals are nothing more than the result of the irresponsible behavior of their relatives....and there is no coincidence that these actions come full circle. I'm so tired of these lazy thugs feeling no emotions but self righteousness and entitlement...just maybe someday you'll get the "rights" you think you deserve. Until that day, rot in hell after you get shot, over dose, get an STD, or procreate without any money or spouse....we owe you nothing. act like a human get treated like a human. act like an animal and long live the justifiable and statistical truth behind racism. poverty has NOTHING to do with it

I'm sick of hearing about the "vicious cycle" of poverty and crime in the inner-cities. There's a very simple way to stop it: If you don't want/can't afford a kid, don't have one! How difficult is that? If you're smart enough to sell drugs and shoot people, you're smart enough to put on a condom. Tad Blather, Concerned Citizen

A realistic viewpoint. Thank God. Thank you Chris

Stop complaining about the crime problem at Penn and problems with Penn's administration. The two recent shootings were at about 3 in the morning (one during Christmas break in a non-university establishment). How would any additional security cameras, police officers or other precautions have prevented this? Are we supposed to setup checkpoints on every artery into campus? You can't prevent all crime. I came to Penn knowing that I was probably safer at a school in the middle of nowhere, but it was a choice I made and one I'll have to deal with. For being in a city, we have it pretty good. I feel sorry for the girl that got shot - on another night it could have been any of us, but people need to stop acting like it's the end of the world. There is no simple solution to the problem and stop acting like Maureen Rush can wave her magic wand and fix everything that ills the school. Maybe you all should stop blaming Penn for this problem and look to City Hall as 1.) 3801 Market isn't in Penn Police's jurisdiction (it's hard to stop somebody from coming to the north end of campus and shooting someone) and 2.) none of the perpetrators come from the UCity area. Chris Philadelphia, PA

I do not see this as a debate about poverty,race, drugs, alcohol or mental illness. This is about thousands of Penn students needing to feel safe in THEIR homes. They are at the University of Pennsylvania, not in,trenches, caves or doing a tour of duty like military ducking land mines in Iraq. Penn students have been sent, by administration, into the surrounding community to live in private housing because Penn cannot provide for all of their needs inside the "walls of ivy city." Therefore, it is Penn's moral and legal obligation to ALWAYS protect its faculty, staff and students with whatever it takes. As a parent, I have lost confidence in the present admin's ability to manage this problem. This admin may do better in another community. Bring on a fresh set of leaders. The future, and some lives, depend on it. a parental unit from the late 60's 45 minutes from Penn

Questions for you James: How much time did your father spend in Jail? Any uncles spend time in Jail? Any of your friends dads? Were you raised in a 2 parent family or 1 parent family? Did your family ever have its gas or electricity cut off? Did you have health insurance as a child? Was there any alcoholism or abuse in your direct family? Did you exclusively attend inner city public schools? Given that you are reading the DP comments today I'm almost certainly justified in saying ''very poor' my ass". You repeat that "the parents and guardians of these kids should be ashamed of themselves", how the hell is that going to help anything? What if the parents aren't even there for the kids or don't care? You're absolutely right that no one is teaching these kids anything. I'm advocating that it's time to stop locking them up when they are adults and start treating the problem. Poverty isn't the reason for criminal activity, it just makes things worse. People who are underemployed are much less likely to be able to provide a stable home and supervision for their children, and when you have millions of kids growing up in that situation you can expect to have problems when they grow up. Don't know why I'm bothering to reply, as I suspect you didn't read my post, though since you accuse me of "making excuses for these guys". Go read "Les Miserables" Javert, er, James. (oh wait, can't read Les Mis because it's French, can you? Maybe you should try "The Grapes of Wrath".) poverty -> crime, student penn

I have to say that the photograph with the article is morbidly fascinating. That guy is definitely hurting. Alum

Karen Glaser, you are a very proud Penn alumna. Alumni is a masculine plural or plural for mixed genders. A male graduate of an institution is an alumnus. Sam

Some of the excuse-makers and name-callers on this thread make me sick. The University has become such an unbridled bastion of liberal propaganda; they have the students of this place regurgitating the same nonsense that their professors instill in them. It is not racist to come to a conclusion when given numerous facts. Are these people who are concluding that Mr. Barrett is a criminal supposed to ignore the facts that this article is reporting? If it smells like it, tastes like it, then it probably is what it appears to be. I realize that some of you want to take the mitigating circumstances of this person's childhood into consideration before labeling him, but you are the type of person that wants to give this person a 'free-pass' based on your studies of what a impoverished childhood can do to a person. Sadly, most of you do not know what it is like to be raised in a poorer environment and have no idea what you are talking about. In poor, black households in North Philly; most of the parents in the same circumstances would be ashamed if their child grew up to be a criminal(as we assume Mr. Barrett has). The point is: GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK, LIBERAL, BILL-CLINTON-IS-GOD, AND MICHAEL-MOORE-IS-THE-HOLY-GHOST BRAINS; people do not want you making excuses for them and feeling sorry for them. What you liberals do is so dehumanizing and emasculating; minorities and impoverished people everywhere do not want you making excuses for them. 99.9% of the poor blacks from North Philly would call Mr. Barrett a piece of shit or at the very least a shady character that they would not give the time of day. THEY wouldn't think, "Oh well, Michael Moore says that this person should not be ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE for his actions since he had a tough childhood, I'm going to hang with that guy." More likely they would stay as far away from him as possible because they know that this guy is BAD NEWS and if he is not looking for trouble it is probably going to find him. It is not your place to think that you are so important that you can make excuses for others, each of our personal experiences are so different we cannot speak intelligently as to the experience of others. Do not try and make excuses or indictments for others in circumstances that you have no first hand knowledge about. You stay classy, West Philly, Patrick, teacher NYC

Poverty=====crime? What a bleeding heart liberal you are. It makes me sick every time I hear one of you idiots blame poverty as the reason for criminal activity. I came from a very poor family and so did most of my friends. We never went out a shot people or robbed people or broke into houses. We were taught from an early age that it was wrong. The problem is that no one is teaching these kids anything. The parents and guardians of these kids should be ashamed of themselves. Please stop making excuses for these guys for crying out loud. And what do you want to be when you grow up,(poverty/crime) a rapper? James

I love how suggesting that a 31 year old male, driving a $60,000+ automobile at 3:00 am in a crime-heavy area while armed with a pistol (albeit no permit) with a previous criminal record is racist. hahahaha. What do you want? A copy of his tax records to see that a Benz SL is beyond his (reported) means? I'll tell you what, that guy is DEFINITELY a criminal and perhaps some flavor of drug dealer. Call me a racist, I don't fuckin care. What would it take for the apologists to realize this? Idiots. If the guy was white I'd still feel this way so please, take your race card and play it somewhere that's actually APPROPRIATE. Scott made good points, I'm with him. Brian bdimm@seas.upenn.edu

As a supporter of civilian concealed-carry, I still can't say I support arming Penn Students. The law states that one must be 21 years of age to even possess a handgun. Furthermore, you can't just "arm" anybody. Gun ownership is a discipline that must be entered into willingly, and conceal-and-carry is a demanding activity that requires training and a good knowledge of the relevant law. An armed student would have to swear off alcohol whenever armed, would have to be of age, and would have to store their weapon securely when not under their direct control. Also, a course in concealed-carry would be mandatory. I suppose if students are willing to jump through those hoops, then I would be comfortable with their having permits. However, I have seen some gross oversimplifications on this board, usually the result of unfortunate ignorance regarding actual statistics. The American murder rate is a much more localized, dynamic entity than Michael Moore would have you believe. Our rates are in a rapid descent from a peak in the early 90s, while many other nations, particularly the United Kingdom, are experiencing drastic increases in their murder rates. In another 10 years, we may very well have an overall rate that is much closer to those of Western Europe. Furthermore, the United States actually ranks low in overall violent crime. A recent UN Survey (which can hardly be considered a shill for the NRA) revealed that Britain and Scotland are in fact the most violent nations in the West. The overall contact crime rate in the US is comparable to nations considered by Americans to be extremely safe, such as Switzerland. Another factor of our murder rate is that it is not evenly distributed in our population. 70% of all American murder victims are active criminals killed by other criminals. Also, 80% of American murders take place in just 4% of America's counties, one of which is my hometown of Los Angeles. Thus, your average American is leading a far safer life than your average Briton. Our murder rate is so out of scale with our assault rate because so much crime in America is amongst criminals. A drug dealer who gets robbed would never report the robbery to the police, but a body is undeniable. Now, as for the high-crime areas, Poverty -> Crime would have us believe that, since the man in the SL failed to defend himself, armed Americans in general also fail. In fact, the FBI's Uniform Crime Report consistently reveals that individuals who attempt to defend themselves with a firearm suffer the lowest rates of death, injury, and property loss when compared to those who comply or defend themselves by other means. Additional peer-reviewed studies have placed the overall number of annual defensive gun uses at anywhere from 100,000 a year, to 800,000, to 1.5 million (Department of Justice) to 2.5 million (Dr. Gary Kleck) It's definitely a complicated issue. But to those who bemoan a Penn student vs. West Philly war, I ask you this: Do you prefer the current situation where only one side is armed? In war, they call that a massacre. Scott Ganz, Writer Los Angeles

Certain facts here- a 31 year old hardened criminal is waiting to be tried for yet another crime but is driving a brand new Mercedes -and he is armed with a gun- add up to a rather obvious conclusion. Namely, that this fellow is probably not an investment banker and probably did not spend the last 10 years applying himself to a job, the requirements of which are probity, discipline and frugality. Rather, this man is a criminal. At some point, some parent, or parents, or an authority figure, or society in general, let this person off the hook morally. That is nothing less than disgraceful. This man's race has absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. David

The event that drew a crowd to campus that night was some kind of hip-hop show at 3801 Market. I recall hearing about it on the radio the day before: it was some kind of hair show and fashion show. I remember thinking that Philly isn't really a hair and fashion hotbed and that those who would be interested in attending such an event probably won't be the sophisticated, adult crowd. The event was marketed by hip-hop artists from outside of Philadelphia. I believe the event was unusual for the city and drew the wrong crowd from all over the tri-state area to the campus area on that evening. The news articles now confirm that the benz driving guy was coming from the event. Penn Mom in Philadelphia

I'm sure David would be proud to see a 31 year old white man driving an expensive car. He'd probably assume the guy led a stand-up life as an investment banker or something. But a 31 year old black man is obviously a despicable creep who either stole the car or gained it in some illegal activity. Never mind that the white guy's company makes money by investing in companies overseas that employ child labor, or kills workers that attempt to unionize, or dumps chemical waste illegally. No, any money made in that kind of business is all fairly gotten and respectable gains. David appears to be something that starts with an R, student penn

I am glad someone addressed the mode of transportation that the 31-yr old "victim" with an "extensive" rap sheet was driving. This probably speaks volumes for the amount of jail time the creeps receive in the first place. What happened, they through the book at him and kept him overnight a couple of times and let him go? I guess he hit the lotto when he got out. NOT! Too bad he survived......at least it would have been one less creep. This guy had a gun and didn't use it because he didn't want to spend a couple of more nights in jail (you probably get more time for a murder if your caught). Figured he'd probably just get injured and could be back with his Mercedes in a couple of days..... VICTIM?

If this country had equal access to reasonable education and health care it would have a lot less crime. David complains that whoever raises a criminal should be ashamed, but he probably also thinks that Barrett and the shooter should be thrown in jail and the key thrown away. How well do you think their kids will turn out? Should they be ashamed too? Is that the answer? This country has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, yet it still has a high rate of violent crime. It has way more armed citizens than there are in comparably wealthy countries and yet still has a high rate of violent crime. It also has way more children living in poverty and a much greater disparity in wealth than comparably wealthy nations. Seems pretty clear that locking up more criminals for longer periods and arming the citizenry aren't the best answers. I'm not an apologist for the people who commit crimes - they obviously need to do their time. But that time should be constructive rather than just a waste in which they learn more criminal skills and to hate the system that put them there. We should also attack crime at its real roots, which lie in poverty and neglect of children. poverty -> crime, student penn

And that photograph of a despicable creep being lifted from a pool of his own blood after being shot because he was flaunting a car he either stole or was the profit from some illegal activity, well that pretty much says it all. Corey doesn't have to go out there and shoot them, they are all killing themselves anyway. Why is it necessary for people who are such complete and total fucking wastes to impose the messes of their lives upon the rest of us. David

I encourage concerned Penn alum, family and friends, particularly parents of students,to email their concerns immediately to Dr. Amy Guttman president@pobox.upenn.edu Safety is a priority and her attention to this year's security catastrophe warrants emergency action. Hilary Sigmon, scientist DC