how is penn responsible for a drunken ass killing himself? how many times have any of you (that being those of you out there who actually read this comments) seen someone falling down drunk? it's sad that he died, but its his own fault. case closed. i really hope this lawsuit is thrown out as frivolous. everyone makes mistakes; its too bad his was fatal. but Michael Tobin was 26 and should have known his limits with alcohol by THAT point in his life. i have sympathy for the guy, but i don't think his parents should profit from his idiocy and irresponsibility. and i mean, hey, why isn't anyone paying ME $5 million for being smart enough to NOT get really drunk and stumble around on a dangerous ledge? just in case we needed a reminder: http://www.darwinawards.com/ Captain Howdy

To Captain Howdy, Your comments are heartless and uncalled for. I hope you experience a loved one die from a senseless accident very soon in your life and remember what you wrote here. I hope you experience this pain for the rest of your life as all of us do who knew Mike. As a parent, nothing could be worse than the loss of a child. Your brazen, righteous comments could not be more hurtful and disrespectful to human life. He was a responsible adult who fell down a flight of stairs, thatÃ?s it. More importantly, Mike was an accomplished Penn graduate, All American Lacrosse player, established professional, and a loving son of Mr. And Mrs. Tobin. His legacy does not deserve to be desecrated by your ignorance and malice. Penn Lacrosse Alumni, Brokerage Executive New York

While I think Captain Howdy could have been a bit more tactful in expressing his opinion, I generally agree with his comments. Mr. Tobin's death was undeniably a tragic accident. However, as no sober person ever met the same fate, I'm much more inclined to believe that this death was the result irresponsible intoxication than the condition of the stairwell. Anne

you know what penn lacrosse alumnus (not alumni - singular vs plural - smart guy).. i have lost loved ones. i've lost loved ones to their own pathetic heroin addiction. i've had a friend commit suicide. i've passively observed as a kid in high school managed to decapitate himself and gore his girlfriend in a DWI accident. they were all responsible for their own actions. we live in a nation were we are assured rights of freedom and liberty, but that doesn't mean we are free of personal accountability. penn as an institution tries to strike a balance with the frats on campus (an antiquated and detrimental system, those greeks), wherein they basically let them self-govern without too much intrusion. so then, penn gets criticized for micromanagement when they get too involved with the frats, so more independence and freedom is extended. in that case, the frats, FIJI in particular, should have cleaned up their own damn mess. they should have been good caretakers for the house provided them. if the fire escape was dangerous, they should have petitioned for repairs, or done it themselves. (the article made no mention of FIJI boys making these problems public) otherwise, they are wholly responsible for anything that goes awry. maybe the House Manager of FIJI at that time is who should be sued. its akin to someone holding a lit stick of dynamite, and not considering it their problem until it goes off. then, missing an arm or whatever, they try to find the person responsible, never once looking in the mirror. once again, i refer you to www.darwinawards.com and i still think its tragic. i remember the morning after it happened very well, the news crews in front of the frat house, the vapid exhausted look in everyone's eyes, the dire curiosity in the onlookers. Captain Howdy

Penn Lacrosse 'Alumni'[sic]: You apparently have a closeness to this situation that most of us don't have; perhaps you knew Michael Tobin personally, etc. etc. But that is all the more reason not to wish the same situation to happen to someone else. Whatever you think of Captain Howdy's comments (some of which were a bit callous), it is not proportional or appropriate to wish the death of someone close to him (or of anyone else, for that matter). This was a horrific, tragic end to a young, promising life, but unfortunately, it is more a lesson about the ills of reckless drinking than it is about poorly-lit staircases. In law school, we learn about "contributory negligence", and that doctrine certainly applies here. NYC Alum

...I am sympathetic to the loss of life, but this does not entitle his family to a multi-million cash-out from UPenn. Especially right now, when that money would be better used for scholarship dollars, academic programs, etc. Onlooker, student NYC

some more thoughts: Penn Lacrosse Alumnus Plural wrote: "He was a responsible adult who fell down a flight of stairs, thatÃ?s it." please pay attention here to the word, 'responsible'. you're right, he was a responsible adult. therefore responsible for his actions. so why not remember him as (and i quote you again): "an accomplished Penn graduate, All American Lacrosse player, established professional, and a loving son of Mr. And Mrs. Tobin." why mire his legacy as a frivolous, polarizing, destructive lawsuit? i have no respect for the Tobin parents. the money they take from penn (god forbid) will only steal from more deserving students, not bring their son back. Michael Tobin should be remembered as a caveat, not bullshit litigation. Captain Howdy

NYC Alum, you'll also remember from your (alleged) torts class that most states now use comparative negligence. Under such a doctrine Penn may be held liable for its contribution to the accident. You may want to give your Epstein book another look... Dave

Dear upenn, Yes, I have been on the steps in the pit in 1996, and yes, they did suck ass, and no Penn is not responsible for his death. While I totally disagree with the style of Captain Howdy's postings, he is fairly right on the money when saying that the fraternity is responsible, not the university. I hope that the Tobin's do get some solace, but trying to make Penn pay for that is bull. Make the fraternity pay, not the university. The fraternity was responsible for the care and upkeep of the building including all stairwells. So how is Penn at fault. Yes, many people have fallen down those steps. Yes, Michael Tobin was smashed that night. Yes, his drunken state made it more likely that he would fall. I'm sorry for the family's loss, but the University is in no way responsible. george

To Upenn, the Tobins may be the nicest people that you have ever met, but that doesn't mean that they are entitled to any money from Penn. If they aren't in it for the money, then why don't they agree to donate any money that they may get in this baseless lawsuit to MADD or some other anti-drinking cause? Maybe that would make your statement more credible. According to all of the reports, Tobin was quite drunk. He was apparently drinking the entire day from the afternoon on at many establishments. His blood alcohol level was at least .2 - definitely drunk by any standard. I'm very sorry that he died, but I think that "drunken fool" is a term that fits him. Maybe had he not been drunk, he could have stopped himself from falling. Also, I have been on those stairs, and and I blame FIJI for not properly taking care of what the university gave them. The Tobins should sue those who enabled their son to drink himself into a stupor and take a header down the stairs. Finally, I have lost family members and friends to disease and senseless acts so I do know how it feels. For you to wish that on someone else is much worse than Captain Howdy's comments (which I do agree with, though I probably would have had more tact). Reader

why don't you people ever read up on this crap before you post all about it? the reason the case is going to trial is so that the FACTS can be presented and decided on. after doing a unbelievably simple google search, i found this from 1981, and shows that Penn was clearly aware of the "serious safety problems" (Penn's words, not mine) that existed in the house and took some responsibility for maintaining it. i'm sure the Tobins' attorney is able to make an even better case. instead of assigning blame without knowing the details involve, why don't you reserve your judgment until after the trial? near the end of this (pg 8 of 9): http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/trustees/80s/19810514ex.pdf alum

Alum, please tell me what something from 1981 (a full 18 years prior to the accident) has to do with current conditions or responsibility. Do we even know what those safety issues were at that point? The fact that the University decided to upgrade the frat house and repair some safety issues does not mean those in the house at the time of the accident were not liable for the harm. Had a frat member placed a case of beer at the top of the stairs and Tobin tripped over that, would that be the fault of the university? No. While this is in no way the same scenario, you can see my point. That is, the University can only do so much. It is up to those who live there to alert the University to a problem and to take some measures necessary to avert a tragedy like what happened here. Until you can show me something from say, the mid 1990's, you do not have a smoking gun that shows that the University is responsible for this. I can also turn the tables and say that if these stairs were so dangerous then Tobin, being an alum of that frat, should have known of their danger and should have avoided them in his drunken state (or any other state). Dave, the doctrine of comparative negligence also means that Tobin is liable for his own death by choosing to drink too much and go near stairs that, if they have been such a long-standing problem, he knew were dangerous. Had the stairs been in absolutely perfect condition, where would the blame lie - with Tobin himself. Reader

no one is actually challenging my argument! i am a penn alum, although my credentials should not matter, as in this anonymous cyber mud slinging fest, only my opinions (should) matter. the reason why i have taken the time to think out my responses to this story, and why i keep checking back to see what other people think, is that the event (Tobin's death) affected me very deeply. i was upset by the whole thing and felt for the family. in fact, 'upenn', i was at the candlelight vigil for the guy. were you? and i was on those steps too, but not in 1996 (where the hell did you get that #?). i was on them on a few occasions between 98-99. 99 being the year that Tobin died. and why is everyone saying that i have no tact? i keep expressing sympathy and regret that it ever happened. you people keep resorting to calling me nasty names, when you have no idea the depth of my own personal suffering, or personal knowledge of the subject. you have no idea who i am, and that is the way it shall remain. so i hope you folks ('upenn' and 'Penn Lacrosse Alumni') feel better having wished evil upon me. also, those of you with some legal knowledge, thanks for the insight and other details. in fact, 'alum', thank you for the info about the dangerous conditions, although 1981 is 18 years prior to 1999, and thus a little out of date. has anyone found FIJI posting complaints about the upkeep of the house? had there been any action taken at all? how was the university supposed to know, and were they truly negligent or just ignorant because the brothers didn't act on their responsibility to change what needed to be changed? and the fact is, no one is answering the question. what the hell good is all that money gonna do? penn should spend whatever it costs to renovate and clean up that building, but don't give a cent to the Tobins (oh wait, they already did -- there will never be a repeat incident like Tobin's death again -- so no need to sue). and i don't care how loving and caring and generous, or how money-grubbing, vindictive, and cruel someone is, the Tobin family deserves no money from Penn. Captain Howdy

Wrong, Captain howdy, I am challenging your arguments and, wrong again, I didn't wish anything on you (that was someone else). And...I find truly pathetic your statements about how much you were touched by his death. Who cares? Who cares that you were at the vigil? Not me. This isn't a test of who was affected and how. Also...as to the other issues recently posted...(1) The University had a management agreement with Fiji pursuant to which the University would maintain the upkeep of the house in many regards, including the "safety" of the house. This agreement was in effect at that time. Some people have claimed that the brothers/the fraternity is responsible for not taking care of what the University gave them; wrong. Penn was under contract to maintain the house and Penn owned the house. It was akin to a dormitory. (2) Penn was aware of the problems with the stairs, as admitted in a number of memoranda over a span of many years (including one months before Mike died). (3) Both the steps and the handrailing on the stairs violated the safety codes of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Penn was also responsible for these violations. As to the attacks against the Tobins, no one knows what they will do with the money, so why bother slinging mud? I just hope that they don't use it for scholarships for people like you. And to Reader, who stated that Mike should have "avoided" the stairs -- those stairs were one of two ways out of the house -- they were the fire escape stairs which were to be used as, among other things, the means to *safely* exit the house in the case of a fire. Hmm. Probably should rethink the argument that he should have known better. upenn

On the one hand, I am disappointed in myself for even bothering to respond to the insensitive posting of "Captain Howdy". Whoever you are, what you fail to appreciate is (1) that Mike Tobin was a living breathing human being who was a leader and a friend to many people on the campus when he attended (and you are...what, a current undergrad...?) and (2) the University is in fact partially responsible for what happened that night. First, you should be shot for calling Mike a "drunken ass" -- where do you get off? Did you know him? Second, he wasn't necessarily "falling down drunk". Have you ever been on the steps to the pit? In 1996? Doubt it. See, you don't know what the #%@%* you're talking about. Some of us do. Keep it to yourself you fucking jackass. Mike deserves some respect, and so does his family. Get a life of your own. upenn

I apologize for posting two in a row, but I hadn't read all of Captain Howdy's postings. The fact that you wrote "i have no respect for the Tobin parents. the money they take from penn (god forbid) will only steal from more deserving students, not bring their son back" just supports my contention that you are a total asshole who never should have been accepted at Penn in the first place (too bad they don't have the "no asshole" policy at Penn). I, for one, paid the entire bill at Penn -- that's right -- 100% of my tuition -- no grants, no scholarships -- and you know what? I'd give it all to the Tobins right now if I could. Penn doesn't and students like you don't deserve a dime of it. You make me sick. The Tobins, had you ever met them, are two of the nicest most generous people I've met. They are not in this for the money. They are in this so that some other student's parents won't have to go through this. Oh, and by the way, to Anne (another post), maybe no one else died falling down those stairs, but hon, people fell down those stairs many, many times. Don't think you're all above this. I just hope that if some tragic ending comes to you while at Penn, your family and friends won't have to read about what an "ass" you were. upenn

Reader, my point was not to find a "smoking gun" that would prove that Penn is 100% responsible for this incident. I am not a lawyer, and have no interest in ever being one. My point was only that if I, a random alumnus with no special knowledge of either side of the case could spend 5 minutes and find a document that shows that Penn had an awareness of problems with the house, then it is not hard for me to believe that the Tobins' attorney could find more than enough information to present a case against Penn. I don't claim to know who is right, or who will win, but it seems to me there's sufficient evidence to assert that Penn played some part in his death and should take more responsibility, which is what the Tobins are doing. I'll leave it to a judge or jury to decide the rest, because they will have more information than myself. Also, it was commonly known that around this time Penn desperately wanted all the frat houses off of Locust Walk (this is still true through the present). I would not be surprised if they were less than responsible in their upkeep of the houses for that reason. alum

I think this is a typical example of people that refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions or in this case the actions of their son. Tobin went out and got drunk. He fell and now his parents want to blame someone. The only person to blame is Tobin. I hope they lose their lawsuit. bill billyd101@yahoo.com