[QUOTE id="5893956a-8bc0-4505-bb7f-07398485a8b1"]I love how people can be so righteous and so hypocritical at the same time. People love to say its cause these are are bunch of prep school jerks and then forget about a little ideal in America we hold so precious that goes something like, "Innocent until proven guilty." F**k everyone who is writing bad things about these kids. They have no idea what they're talking about and they don't even know these kids. If they did, and if they were half as smart as any of them, they would no how stupid what they say is. First, find something better to do than rip on some kids who you'll never be half as good as, and then do me a favor and go F**k youselves. Andy Goldberger Princeton University apgoldbe@princeton.edu[/QUOTE] sdfsdfsdfd

wow

This is all bs. Phil's a good guy. Though he did drink a lot, he would never hurt anyone. Go Sully, and all other supporters. It really is upsetting, when people who grew up with Phil like Taylor and Karl can't stand behind him. It's not his fault you both were very strange and weren't friends with him. You think you're both hot shots now. OOOH we can diss Phil in an online forum... what are you trying to prove? I think you both just have a problem with being like other people. You both KNOW this isn't like Phil and probably in your hearts you both know he wouldn't hurt anyone! And Karl, you quack... I think you need to calm down. I'm laughing at you right now. I cannot believe you would stoop so low as to tease Buck about the school he chose to go to. This is where he wanted to go and I agree with him as long as he's happy. And I hope you're happy too. Maybe you're jealous of the fact that he's happy, considering you didn't get into Swarthmore. As for what Bucky said-- I didn't read it. But I know him pretty well. I'm sure whatever he had to say was great. This kid has or should I say had a a lot of PC spirit. Some would consider him the heart of the school. I'm glad he said what he said, at least he's behind his classmate! To Phil-- HANG IN THERE! Stay strong, I know you will. I know your family loves you very much and is behind you, as the rest of the school is--excluding the pompous a$$holes! Penn Charter Student

There are so many flaws in this discussion board, I really don't know where to start. Ok. The whole private school vs. public school issue. It is interesting how so many people have chosen to hammer private school students when only one or two of those involved were from private schools. What does this mean? The other 3 or 4 were from public schools (or something other than private schools)! So for those who have presented this issue as a private school, rich kid problem, I'm sorry to disappoint you. It's a pity that things like this happen. True, people make mistakes. What's most important is that they learn from these mistakes and move on; and compensate for what they have done. That's why we have a justice system. We must recognize that some form of punishment might be needed to achieve these goals in this case, if those involved are found to be guilty. However, as many have said before, the guys should be seen as 'innocent until proven guilty'. As for which school this all happened at, I really don't think this matters at all. No doubt, the story has been somewhat 'blown up' by the press simply because it happened at an Ivy League school, but I sure hope media will not severely intrude into our justice system. On a lighter note, some of the comments on this board were hilarious! "all you stuck up Dalton kids need to get a life and stop living off your parents' money" (Penn graduate). Now tell me, wise one, what do expect privileged kids to do? Go home and tell their parents, 'I'm not going to let you feed me!'? 'I don't want to have anything to do with you!'? Instead, won't you want them to appreciate what they have and accept it? I sure hope you'll pay for your kids if you ever end up with any. "things like this don't happen at Harvard...I'll admit to having been in silly situations...I was never close to being caught" (Harvard dude) First off, 'dude', you should have figured out long ago that they weren't 'caught' - they turned themselves in. Secondly, a word of advice - if you admit to doing silly things, don't contradict yourself by saying that silly things don't happen at Harvard, cuz that's where you are at. "College is four years of kids making mistakes and learning from them so they can avoid them as adults...expelling these kids isn't going to teach them a lesson, it's going to make them more angry at society..." 'Kids'? These are ALREADY adults! They are old enough to vote, to drive and everything! And what makes you think they are 'angry at society' to begin with? And if they acknowledge their faults (which is important, as I said earlier), then they should be ready to accept a reasonable punishment (though I'm not going to say whether expulsion is 'reasonable' or not). Anyways, lets hope that the truth surfaces, and the guys get their fair judgment, whatever that may be. BTW, I proud of what the other Brown students had to say in this forum - I'm so glad you guys tried to be objective. Freshman @ Brown, Brown '06 Providence, RI

All I can say is "FIST IN THE MOUTH" and well that the trouble with kids today is very troubling. Stupid Americans. I would blame his summer camp counsellor. And his summer camp. KW

I attended HKIS (Class of '00) while Thomas was also a student there. Although I didn't know him well, I can say that the Thomas I knew then would definitely be out of character if he did this out of his own free will. I urge everyone to await the result of the trials before passing prior judgement. I also urge everyone to notice no witnesses have yet been quoted in the article, and nothing about what really happened has been proven. Innocent until proven guilty. Lets just keep it at that. PS- dragon, the fact that you're hiding your name when you beat someone while they're down obviously shows you are not anyone with high merit to begin with. You defile the name dragon. s.yang, Student Boston, MA

that's enough with all the bickering...what happened to phil is his own fault...true everyone makes mistakes...but to what degree can a stupid act of violence be dismissed as a simple mistake? well anyways...that was my two cents... I just hope that phil somehow learns from his "mistake"... P.S. HEY YOU 02 PC GRADS....what's with all the dissing and pointless cursing? I thot you guys were the class of '02? Where's that pride you have of PC? Makes me wonder if phil isnt the one giving PC a bad name...but rather the PC graduates w/ their useless profanity. '03 PC student

That's what happens when you go to a school full of ugly japs. You get frustrated and shit happens. Sorry, but it's not their fault, it's the fucking admissions office's abolishment of physical interviews which really caused this heinous situation. We're with you hochfelder... NYC Prep School Kids, attending college down south The Elitist Southern University, TN

Does anyone know how these guys knew each other? It just seems random that five guys, all of different years, would happen to hang out in the Quad. beth

THAT'S WHY HE WENT TO DALTON. Dalton, Choate, Andover, etc. all are rumored to educate better than say, suburban high schools. I have been completely unimpressed by every prep school person I met at Penn. I'm sure there are some are actually some smart ones (like frosh girl, I'm sure) that come to Penn, but I think the smart ones parlay their connections and intelligence into spots at Harv, Yale, Prince, etc, and the not so talented shoot for Penn, Cornell, Duke. TT, Finance Chicago

The Dalton class of 2002 is praying for you Hochfelder. Stay Strong. Tiger Pride!!!! daltonian

Ha. I find the last comment from Mr. "I Am an Authority on Prep Schools" amusing. Yes, of course, the 'dumb' prep school students shoot for the ivy league slums, apparently also known as those schools ranked below #5. As for the 'not-so-talented,' I believe they never made it past the admissions desk at any respectable private institution. I cannot speak for those prep school students at Penn (but for a few close friends). However, I highly recommend you meet more of them before you make any further judgments. I am fed up with the highbrow, narrow-minded generalizations of the so-called "educational elite" of this country. Whatever led our society to a place where one would even think that the dumb kids go to Penn or Cornell or Duke? I give credit to anyone, anywhere, working hard for their undergraduate degree. Let's get off the highhorse, folks. A.L., Cornell University '05, PEA '01 Ithaca, NY

Looks like Daddy's $$$ could get him into Penn, but this moron couldn't graduate. Stupid rich kid. Looks like he's going to UConn. public HS alum

Can I add some insight since I served ten years on the court appointment list and now teach a paralegal course in criminal law. 1. the men are still innocent. 2. once arrested, they were transported from the local district to the Roundhouse, or main police building where they were fingerprinted and photographed and waited in a holding cell with others arrested that day. IÃ?m told the holding cell is scary. TheyÃ?re taken into a room where someone from ROR asks information about their ties to the community and their work history, and ROR makes a bail recommendation. They return to the holding cell. By the way, the bail guidelines were established as a result of work done by professors at Penn in the 70Ã?s. 3. At some time later, all the people arrested that day are handcuffed together, go up stairs, released, and appear before a bail commissioner who sets bail. the commissioner is not a judge.Private Lawyers can be present. The public defender is also there for those who do not yet have a lawyer. All this takes about 12 hours if the arrest was in the morning. It can take longer if the arrest was in the middle of the night. 4. People who make bail go home. People who cannot make bail go to the "detention center" on State Road and await the next hearing, which must normally be within ten days. People who could not afford a lawyer are appointed one at this stage. 5. Since this was a felony, the next hearing is a preliminary hearing. TheyÃ?re usually at the 18th District. Here theyÃ?re having it at the Criminal Center. It could be anywhere there is a judge, stenographer, American Flag and court clerk. Nearly all of all the people at a preliminary hearing go to trial. The standard at a preliminary hearing is this: "if everything the witness said was true, is there enough evidence to hold this person for trial? " The witness could be lying, but thatÃ?s a fact decided at trial. The standard here is different. So itÃ?s usually useless for the defendant to say anything at the preliminary hearing. 6. The defense lawyer can tie the witness down to specific facts at the preliminary hearing since the testimony is transcribed by the court reporter. Frequently some charges are dropped at the preliminary hearing because the judge does not feel a case was made out on those more serious charges. A few times they are added. The defense lawyer makes argument on those points. 7. The prosecutor represents the Commonwealth. The victim is a witness for the Commonwealth. The victim does not press charges, the Commonwealth does. ThatÃ?s why it is "Commonwealth v. defendant". or "State v Defendant". I was in one court cases where the witness did not want to testify and the prosecutor got a court order compelling them to testify. 8. Go here to check out the charges: http://members.aol.com/StatutesPA/18.html 9. Any questions? Bob Gasparro Bob Gasparro, Esq., Attorney/ Accountant University City BG@bobgasparro.com

TT, I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. Your pompous and misguided attitudes about prep schools probably stem from the fact that no worthwhile or intelligent prep school graduate would waste their time talking to a finance geek like your self. Why don't you stop making unfounded generalizations, you arrogant nerd. TTT, giver of truth Penn

I personally can't believe that Hochfelder could get into Penn without realizing that you can't light motor oil on fire with a cigarette. Dumbass. Stephen, Student Oberlin, OH Freemason16@Hotmail.com

Emily Brill: you didn't even know Hochfelder when you went to Dalton, so keep your mouth shut. Clearly those who have problems with prep schools are too ignorant and biased in their own right to realize that these institutions give their students the best educations available. You're condemning these 5 kids without even hearing their side of the story. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Preppie

Looks like the AP has picked up on the story. I've already read the story on both cnn.com and boston.com so it seems the incident has made national headlines. It's an incident that will unfortunately give Penn negative press it surely doesn't want nor need...perhaps nationwide, people will attribute the incident to a bunch of drunken Penn State students! Penn '97 alum NJ

I agree with "Preppie"; second rate high school kids blasting prep schools because they couldn't get into them is typical. It is quite ignorant of you to make an issue of prep schools being somehow inferior because ONE of the five in question attended one. Stick to the facts and remember that although you might have been top of your class at some broke public high, you are still JV for life. ivy grad Fla.

This is so embarassing for Penn. I thought we were supposed to be above that sort of thing in an 'educated' environment - I hope Penn is doing something to show that we do not condone this sort of behavior - friendly rivalry, Puck Frinceton, all that is great --- this is just sad and shameful. Naureen, student London

Hey Daltonians, how about a prayer for Jon Branti? Tiger Pride?! Is that what Dalton is teaching? Great education. Penn alum, student London

Bob- What was the point of that? Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? That's the impression I get. At least it's relevant to the story though. Penn Students- Thanks for responding to this article by arguing about prestige. John Washington, DC

As a member of the Class of 1996, I can remember the wonderful "Water Buffalo" incident that ended up on the front page of the WSJ. Compared to an immature and politically-incorrect insult screamed out the window by that former Penn student, I find this event an absolute scandal. Yes, as Bob correctly said, these guys are innocent until the court finds otherwise, but in the event they are guilty of this shocking crime, I recommend the university wastes no more time on them. They are expelled without question. And to those five guys, who "allegedly" committed this horrible crime, I'm sure your parents are so proud! Congrat's on using your brain when making that bet: betting your futures/education/etc. on what I imagine you thought would be a mere prank. Well, as we all saw, it ended up as much more than that, didn't it! And by the way, "daltonian", shame on you for supporting this scum. You think you are doing Dalton a service? LMD

As a UPENN and Prep School graduate, I find it quite disturbing that people choose to focus on one of this individual's background, rather than the disturbing crime these guys committed. The behavior displayed by these 5 students, is an embarrassment to the University and more so to the student body. Their behavior is an example of the self-centered, arrogant, and elitist bubble that so many of the students at PENN live under for the four years. What the heck would lead any rational- ivy, non-ivy, college educated, not-college educated HUMAN being to do this? UPENN students need to wake-up and stop living in the bubble, so nicely nested in West Philly. The pathetic belief that an ivy-education entitles one to things needs to end. I hope the university takes the appropriate action and gives these students the correct punishment and does not allow the families wealth/and or power to cloud them of doing the right thing. An Embarrassed Alumn, Finance NY

In response to Beth, All 5 students are Owls or prospective owls... i am surprised no one has seen this connection yet... pretty obvious around campus Greek Insider