It's even stranger given that Tavraj Banga is the son of the Chairman of Unilever, India - Mr MS Banga. Such behaviour is quite inexplicable Baba, none Idaho

I agree with Stevko from the standpoint that there are university professors, administrators and Presidents (including Rodin) who spew Liberal hate speech toward conservatives but welcome corrupt liars like Al Gore to campus! Rodin would welcome Taliban members and communists from China to campus before she would welcome President Bush!!! We need professors and presidents who do not push an elitist political agenda on students. Dems talk a good game on minorities but it is the Republicans who are actually doing something about it with school vouchers and developing teaching standards for the public schools. Yes, the kids should be deported if found guilty. No I am not a war monger Penn girl, and yes we achieve peace through military strength and technology second to none. And anyone who has (Saddam, bin Laden, Arafat, Taliban, Al-kayda, Hammas) or is attempting to kill innocent civilians will be brought to death through military tribunals. Sean Lee

Oh My God. I went to school with Thomas in Hong Kong. HKIS... This is the biggest shock. I never thought id be reading about him in the news. Matt Waters protostar@hotmail.com

If there is evidence to establish that these students did what they are charged with or allowed it to happen, they should be expelled without considering what other consequences expulsion may invoke. Michael Kearney Michael.Kearney.WG64@Wharton.UPenn.edu

Shocking...three of the five Owls were International students. Could have never guessed that one. Why is the Penn Campus worried about about making sure these guys get supposed due process? We are all students here. We all know what Owls are, and we know what they do. Why is this so hard for people to believe? Penn Student

While we all weep for the poor embarrassed gang of five and the finals they have to take, we should really be concerned about the fact that there are five students wandering around campus who seem to have no problems either attacking other college students or failing stop their friends from doing so. All five are disgusting individuals...if only we could deport them all... Student, Student Philadelphia

red card. whoever wrote the piece entitled "Shocking" has to have their posting privileges taken away and be placed back on the sidelines where they belong. first of all three of the five kids were in Owl not all five and yes they are international. that means nothing. I am wondering what a typical Owl does? I am friends with a lot of them and they are normal people with a different background than the thousand or so kids that are from Long Island, West Chester and New Jersey. The fact that they are international has nothing to do with the crime they might be convicted of committing. I believe what they did to be disgraceful to themselves, their families and the school. You say "we all know what owls are," but we don't even know you. For all we know you could have a criminal past or have something hidden that if a reader saw your name next to the posting would refer back to your past when you might have gotten a little too drunk one night. Next time, think bf you write and judge. john jgriffin@christies.com

Another red card to the DP for quoting some College freshman as some sort of legal expert. Contrary to the anonymous frosh, it is possible for any of the charged students to be convicted even if they did not actually participate in the attack. They can be charged with the substantive crime as accomplices if they gave encouragement or assistance to whoever did assault Brantl. Based on the facts as reported, I'd imagine that the conspiracy charge would stick, too. If the five students agreed to assault a Princeton student sleeping in the Quad, then all of them could be found guilty of conspiracy even if only one student assaulted Brantl. My guess, though, is that this thing will plead out with the felony charges getting dismissed in exchange for guilty pleas to some misdemeanor charges. Law student

Sending a full report of this incident to Tom Ridge. These foreign students, if convicted, must and will be deported. The U.S.A. will not tolerate troublemakers from other countries from this day forward. We have to seal the borders... I support digging deep trenches along Mexican and Canadian borders and limiting access to only major roads that all have checkpoints. Sean Lee

It says that 3 of the 5 students are residents of other countries. This does not mean they are citizens. I am pretty sure that Bispham does live in Hong Kong, but he did grow up partly in Pennsylvania and is a United States citizen. And This has nothing to do with the Mexican border. Student Pennsylvania

1. Let us not forget one fundamental principle: Innocent until proven guilty, not the contrary. I am shocked to see that some of you feel these students do not deserve due process. You are supposedly the young thinkers of our country. 2. Please do tell me "what the Owls are" since you say you all know. My son, a UPenn student, just happens to be a member and from what I've seen, they are a pretty nice group of young men(and probably no more rowdy than those in any other frat when they get going and mix alcohol and young male testosterone!) 3. What is wrong with being an international student, as intimated by some feedback? Clue me in, please. My son is one, even though we are are American citizens living abroad. Do I sense some prejudice there? 4. No excuses for this sort of behavior, of course, but pouring more fuel onto the fire (no pun intended) and inflaming the public serves no useful purpose. 5. This is what can happen when the American "ideals" of competition and rivalry--present in society and on college campuses (grades, sports, etc.) get out of hand and run amock. 6.And please do remember, there but for fortune go you or I. l a k, university teacher--not at upenn abroad

Sean Lee - great idea, let's whip up some more paranoia and turn this country into Angola! How about some land mines with those trenches, you war-mongering loon? Penn girl

First off, none of the accused will receive any felony conviction. Secondly, that's what Princeton scum get with their crappy attitudes towards UPENN. They can suck an egg. Lastly, you can't ignite motor oil with an open flame Michael J. Stevko, Philadelphia Office Manager michaeljstevko@hotmail.com

Personally, I am disgusted that this type of behavior has occurred on our campus. While I understand that it is not representative of the character and behavior of the majority of students who attend this institution, still, I believe that the ignorant and illegal acts which were committed against the Princeton student were not only an infraction of the law and a clear violation of his civil rights, but also a reflection of a social ill that infects our society and is especially prevalent within our own generation: the problem of perceived "entitlement"- the sense of some affluent youths (some Ivy Leaguers included) who knowingly exploit the fact that they are unlikely to be held responsible to the full extent of the law for such abominable behavior- and what I would call the "spoiled-brat syndrome"- feeling entitled to such biased treatment solely due to their privileged socio-economic status and position in society- and thus "taking advantage." I am thankful that Ms. Hudgkins and the other students from the other Ivy League institutions are, for the most part, not cognizant of the infamous isolated incidents of ignorant and barbaric "secret society" behavior on our campus. We should count ourselves fortunate that the rest of the academic community, as Ms. Hudgkins states, "doubt[s] that... Penn kids are stupid. I think it means that [all young] people are [can be] pretty dumb and immature [overall]." All I can say, after several years of being at this school as a young person who has herself benefited from the advantages of being from a somewhat socially advantaged background, is that I have perceived the attitude of several of my peers, my fellow Penn students, who believe that because they have "made it here" atop the "Ivory Tower," or because they are from affluent families that will protect them from bearing the full consequences of the illegal and ignorant infractions of the law, that they can "get away" with this type of behavior. That assumption that they should be entitled to this preferential treatment is where I take issue. Something that causes me to become extremely angry at times, is that many students, not only at Penn, but at all Ivy League, top-tier prestigious academic institutions everywhere, have this overbearing assumption that they should be "entitled" to superior treatment compared to their less advantaged peers simply because of their privileged social position (Do we ever stop to think about how some of us got here? It makes me angry sometimes to think that the valedictorian at a top magnet school in the country from a lower socio-economics class can be rejected from a college like Penn or Princeton while someone like me, who admittedly has a lower SAT score and lower GPA than some from less advantaged backgrounds who admittedly deserve more than me to be here and who are denied admission to academic institutions such as ours) who is thus probably less qualified, is here. Honestly, the system is not all that is it cracked up to be! I worked hard to be here, and probably, the average reader of the DP has worked hard to be here, but there are many who have worked far harder than us who have not been able to be accepted into an Ivy League institution- let alone rise in the socio-economic ladder of society- due to reasons that are beyond their control. What are they going to do?) The system is flawed. Without a doubt, if the same five students who had allegedly intimidated and threatened the Princeton student were local African-American youths who a) were not from upper-class families and b) did not attend Ivy League institutions, there would be an extremely disparate set of consequences awaiting these five young men. Even today, as African-American men who commit minor misdemeanors (far lesser crimes which are not even potentially threatening to the immediate safeties of human beings) receive a stiff sentence of several years in prison, a consequence which will haunt them for the rest of their lives-these five young men (most likely from let's face it-socially privileged backgrounds) will probably incur a mere slap on the wrist and walk away- free to roam society. Certainly, the system is inherently flawed, and certainly, you may say, "Why should I care? Why should I be reading this? This problem does not affect me a'tall." It makes me upset to think that this great injustice is one single instance of what is and what will probably remain a permanent fixture and a permanent problem that prevails in our culture and our society, but at the same time, I believe that there is hope for our future. By opening our eyes and making ourselves aware of the major ills of society and the gross injustices which prevail in society, perhaps one day we can use our privileged position as Ivy League graduates to effect positive changes in society and to help make a positive difference in the world- to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem- as some of us, merely being unaware of the injustices of the system contribute to and often act as unconscious supporters of the current unjust system or status quo that will inevitably simultaneously release privileged youths from affluent backgrounds who break the law and threaten the safety of individuals while irrevocably altering the lives of socio-economically disadvantaged minorities who commit minor crimes, particularly those indigent African-Americans, who have already suffered enough from our unjust and inconsistent legal system and status quo. Knowledge is power, and by becoming aware of the injustices of society and of the system, at least, you may empower yourself and allow yourself to understand the social structures which make the system work and to recognize that you may make a choice- the choice to determine whether you're going to use your knowledge gained through this potentially privileged experience of higher learning- to change society- for the better. In my opinion, it is not only the acts that these five young men have allegedly committed which are a crime, but also, more importantly, the very fact that time and again, the great injustices of society can and will indeed continue to prevail. LJ, Student Penn

This was a horrible incident that happened at Penn. I went to high school with one of the 5 owls and I am not surprised that he was involved. They are not guilty until proven innocent, but I will not be shocked if I find out that his dad gets him out of this situation. They will use all the connections they have to make sure that they do not get thrown out of Penn. a prospective Penn student, student Philadelphia

Dear Michael S.,- In my three years at Princeton, I have never heard any student express any attitude whatsoever regarding UPENN. I run the humor magazine here, and believe me, if Princeton students found UPENN worthy of ridicule, I would know. Any rivalry or animosity is entirely on your side. But if the illusion of our snobbery brings you satisfaction, Mike, knock yourself out. Moving on, I imagine that the perpetrators knew that motor oil will not ignite at room temperature, but it's still a serious offense, and the kind of behavior no reputable university can tolerate. There will almost certainly be expulsions. These guys may not go to jail, but they'll have to say farewell to the ivory tower. For what it's worth, though, I know one of these kids, and I honestly believe that this was not an act of malice, merely of _astonishing_ stupidity. Whether this should make a difference I leave to you. Princeton Student

To L A K, whose son is an Owl. Yes, as a student on this campus, I DO know exactly the types of students that are members of the Owl Society. Please don't be so naive as a parent that you would believe the crock you are fed on parents weekend or whenever you come to visit. The fact is, most of the Owls are international. you are right, there is nothing wrong with being and international student. But most of them still are. Secondly, unlike you who gets the watered down version of these losers through your son, I'm actually a student here. I have been to one of their parties. I've seen the cocaine. I've had male friends go through their pledge process. Do you honestly think that your son and his friends tell you everything that goes on there? Penn Student

Well, Mr. Princeton let me tell you that when I was in the Navy, hazing was a way of life. It was part of the tradition of the service, and there are boobs to this day that are around who are seeking to abolish a tradition-same thing in regards to Penn. Rivalry amongst the Ivy Leagues is fun, traditional, and SHOULD be tolerated. To expel these guys over motor oil is stupid. Suspend, yes, expel no. They will not go to jail, theyÃ?ll get a slap on the wrist. Granted, IÃ?m no lawyer, but I have a PHD in life, and trust me, no one burns on this one. Micahel J. Stevko, Office Manager Center City michaeljstevko@hotmail.com

Dear Dr. Mike, Sorry to have addressed you so disrespectfully earlier. I assume that you got your degree in life from the Navy, between arms certifications? It's so wonderful to encounter someone trained so thoroughly in both life and death!(nothing but respect for the navy, mind you). Or did you, perhaps, attend the School of Hard Knocks? Wherever it was, I can tell from your precise diction that your course of study must have included numerous classes in the law, too. Your surety is doubtless the result of this incredible polymathy. Nevertheless, I have a number of thoughts for your consideration. First, the treatment of the plebe class at the naval academy is in the process of being reworked. Apparently the people in charge decided that cruelty wasn't all that productive, and that the sheer fun of hurting people wasn't enough to justify the practice. I'm sure the very idea horrifies you- perhaps you could drive down to annapolis and beat up each plebe yourself? Second, neither UPenn nor Princeton is a military academy. I know it isn't obvious, but you can tell if you look closely. The lack of uniforms and armed guards, the fact that you don't have to commit to 8 years of pain and danger at sea, etc. This means, wonder of wonders, that the students are subject to the restrictions of state law - if not to those of common sense and decency. That means that they can be prosecuted for such minor offenses as complex assault and terroristic activity. Sure, they'll plead down, but it won't be 20 hours of community service. Third, hazing is no longer given a blind eye at institutes of learning. Something's happened since you went to school. It's called moral evolution. Hurting and threatening people for fun has become what we call a "bad" thing. I know the adjustment is hard, but if you can't do it, the government has a number of treatments to help. Iron bars are often involved. UPenn can't afford to let this sort of thing go on. If they ignore it, their image will suffer, and they'll lose both applicants and donors. Not to mention the right to host future debating tournaments. On the other hand, I have a degree in neither life nor law, so what do I know? Reasonable counterarguments (from anyone) are more than welcome. Mr. Princeton

First of all, hats off to Mr. Princeton. I could not agree more with what you've thus far written. However, I myself do not have a steadfast opinion on WHAT punishment these boys should receive, but whatever they get should be harsh enough to discourage ANYONE from even considering committing follies of this nature. I would think that top tier universities, and for that matter ALL universities, would not allow students who take part in such inane acts of violence to remain students at their current academic institutions. What college in its right mind seeks disgrace and dishonour? These boys, be they whatever creatures or hooligans they may be, have tarnished UPenn's name, and though many students from other universities are unaware of the incident, all UPenn students ARE aware, as is CNN. Lastly, people need to stop bringing up the Owls. These students were not severely pressured into pouring motor oil onto the Princeton student; they did so of their own accord and will. Leave the Owls alone and focus alone on the act at hand, as well as its repercussions in today's academic world. UPenn student

Upenn Student and Mr. Princeton: Oh, get off the high horse pallies. It's crybabies like you two that whine about every single action or "bad thing" as you call it, that make this country the garbage it has started to become-a group of PC, sensitive, MTV watching, sue-happy morons- plain and simple. And our country is oh so better off for it, huh? I'm not Corky from Life Goes On, but thanks for alerting me to the fact I'm not in the Navy. Some days I wish I were, others-no thanks. Bottom line, those in the military are held to a higher standard than you civilians, we can get in trouble both for what we do and say on and off duty. There is no private time. If it is a moral dilemma, then you can get convicted for under the UCMJ, thank you very much. I practice Pattonesque Politics, and can't stand to hear how a couple a people should get screwed for an event so minor. I think there are more important things to worry about in this country, state, city, and University. Michael J. Stevko, Office Manager Center City michaeljstevko@hotmail.com