For the one article in which the DP used "anonymous" sources, do you think they could have TRIED to protect them?? " 'The three upperclassmen are in the Owl Society from our records,' said the second student, who is affiliated with the Greek system." Not Conor Daly, Student Penn

It was pretty obvious that this was related to a pledging event of a "secret society." This is exactly why the University should keep the Greek system together and strong instead of kicking a house off after one or two violations. At least when the house is not underground, things are monitored more and the brothers/sisters are not stupid enough to do such a thing similar to what occurred. Although there is a national trend to abolish the Greek system on college campuses, this event merely exemplifies the need for them. Kicking a house off campus is merely recognition that they are the wild "Animal House"-like group they are trying to be like, so it is hence a reward for their behavior. Instead of kicking a house off in the future, the University should create a new system of corporal punishment whereas a house on probation/suspension would have to perform extensive community service for their actions (anything from teaching children to cleaning public toilets at SEPTA stations). Owl as a house can't be punished- they are no longer officially recognized. If these boys were part of a recognized fraternity, you know that they would be getting kicked off campus right about now (with the exclusion of the one house that will never be kicked off campus) Greeks Rule, Playa Hater A Van Down By the River

For those of us who aren't in on all this secret-society stuff, would someone please inform me who the Owls are? Other than being described as "underground," who are these people and what do they stand for? I thought the headline was referring to a connection to Temple University! Curious George

Butte Grubman Esq. is not a member of the Owl Society of Philadelphia. m y o f'n b, Judge NYC mind_yob@yahoo.com

First of all, Butte is a tool and is definitely not part of Penn's Owls society. If he took the time to do his homework, he would know it's only a little over ten years old, not twenty years like he suggest. By the way Butte, did you go to Princeton's law school, like you suggest? Because they don't have one. Second of all, and this is not in defense of the alleged actions, but even if these guys had ties to the Owls, it doesn't mean that the incident had anything to do with the society itself. There is no proof of a connection. It seems to me that all these "Greek" people need to shut their mouths about throwing accusations at a society that they more than likely don't actually know anything about. I don't mean to start a secret society vs. fraternity battle like yesterday's prep school vs. public school one ,but maybe the Greek system shouldn't act so high and mighty. What about all the stereotypes about frats? Binge drinking and drugs, more often than not used to dupe a girl into being gang raped. I, for example, have heard a lot of very specific accusations against a house somewhere in the vicinity of 37th and Locust. My point is that these are stereotypes of frat boys, which I know are largely untrue, so why come to presumptuous conclusions about secret societies when there were only three guys allegedly linked with one. James Bond, Penn freshman

There are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of the Owls society, and the inherent dangers it presents to the community. While it offers students access into a privileged circle, it is reasonable to wonder how much morally objectionable conduct goes on within such a circle; reasonable, because the Owls society keeps so much of its information private. Without a doubt, it an organization that Penn's campus should be on guard against, not only in light of this incident, but also because of its oddly anonymous nature. As students, we must learn to be aware of potentially adverse elements within our university community. Otherwise, the prestige of our school, the control we have over our image as a student body will always be in jeopardy. Fighting Back Philly

While I have had a rough time this year with Phil, I was sickened reading the responses. All of those kids who bashed Phil for his money are mistaken. While rich, he comes from a very philanthropic family that cares far more for other people than themselves. Phil is certainly not a miser. Secondly, Phil did not get into Penn for his money. If you went to Penn Charter you would know that he was one of the most intelligent kids in our grade. His SAT score is much more impressive to admission reps than his money. Everyone makes mistakes. We all try to impress people, and sometimes we go to foolish extents to do so. Martin Lehr, Penn Student

I have known Tom Bispham for several years now and even though he attends UPenn now, I still keep in contact with him, as he comes up to Cornell somewhat regularly for NROTC events. To say that he is guilty at this juncture is a mistake, as nothing as been proven. Furthermore, I have not heard any kind of statement from the victim. Even if the victim confirms the allegations, this could be a case of mistaken identity or something along those lines, so it would be best not to judge. Mounce., Cornell University `05 Ithaca, NY

It seems almost silly to join a debate like this--a debate that disregards fact and extols rumor and fiction. Without knowing what really happened, and by that, I mean the testimony of those actually involved, we have no right to criticize them and publish defaming and hurtful remarks about them. That is in direct reference to the comments made about Phil Balderston. A better friend I could not ask for and your comments make me sick. Get a life instead of needlessly ripping on one of the finest people at this school. AZS

The suspects' affiliation with the Owl Society has nothing to do with their motive in committing the crime. The Owl Society operates similarly to a fraternity but is not officially under the authority of the fraternity council. Regardless, the students' actions are terroristic at worst and stupid at best. They bring shame upon PENN and I hope their sentences are just. In a time when we all fear terrorism, it is best to root out the terrorism around us swiftly. Chris Anderson College 1998 Chris Anderson, Data Systems Specialist Los Angeles, CA chris@bizrate.com

Psi U is Owls Society? Isn't the Owls Society Psi U, or a chapter of Psi U (www.psiu.org)? Sure appears that way but I didn't know that it was "secret society" type of frat. Cornell Student, Student Ithaca

What refreshing commentary Butte offered everyone. I suppose Butte is of the mindset that when he has an upcoming court case, he attacks the opposing attorney so that he can have the "edge" to which he so lovingly refers. What a splendid way to go through life. I wonder if he engages in similar actions every time he wants to have an advantage. I think his name speaks for itself. More importantly, the students involved in this incident should be immediately expelled. There are no discrepancies in what happened - 5 students attacked and tried to light another human being on fire. Where is the question mark here? Penn needs to send a message that this disgraceful behavior will not be tolerated. Instead of making ridiculous comments blaming the incident on beer or chalking the criminal behavior off to a practical joke going too far, Penn officials should take swift and immediate action. I am truly saddened and embarrassed by the way Penn is handling this situation. I certainly do not feel like supporting a school that harbors and protects criminals. Outraged Alum New York

Mr. Chris Anderson: You forget to note that ALL of the suspects were members of the Owl Society. There has to be something involved with that. Two of the suspects live in the Owl House -- interesting how they were in the Quad in the early morning. You can't even get into a dorm you don't live in after like 2 am or so. They had to have been signed in, which, interestingly enough, takes a bit of pre-meditated thought. But either way, you are correct, Mr. Anderson, in saying that they students need to be punished heavily, if found guilty. Rajesh Mehta, student

Even though the "infamous quad five" are probably having a horrible time right now, with everyone keen to judge and slander them, it could only get worse, they could be in jail, and then my bizkit would make them limp like Fred Durst. Bizkit, Occupation: To subjugate new prisoners Location: Your local prison

Excuse me, but you all need to think about this rationally. The kid who got oil on him wasn't even hurt. This was simply a college prank. It shouldn't ruin these kid's lives. Maybe some discipline is appropriate, but any attempt to expel these students and I and the rest of the owls will use all our resources to fight it. Butte Grubman Esq., Executive - Penn and Princeton Alum 84' and 87' New York

Cornell student, to answer your question: About 8 or so years ago, some members of the then Psi Upsilon chapter here at Penn kidnapped a member of Delta Phi Fraternity (aka St. Elmo's) and the chapter's charter was revoked pending reorganization. The active members of Psi Upsilon proceeded to establish what is now known as the Owl Society, an underground "pseudo-Greek society," which operates outside of the University, so therefore they can do whatever they want, without worry of ramifications. Psi Upsilon since that time, has recolonized and is a recognized fraternity here at Penn and has no affiliation whatsoever with the Owl Society, despite the various times in the last few semesters where members of Owl have tried to break into the Psi Upsilon house and steal ritual equipment. The listed "related sites" help clarify this point. Conor W. Daly, InterFraternity Council President

BUTTE GRUBMAN IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE OWL SOCIETY OF PHILADELPHIA PLEASE READ

This wasn't an OWLs rush event. It was a fight that got out of control. Brantl is a pussy who talked a lot of shit and actually started the fight by pushing the kid earlier in the night. It was a fight between 2 people... the other 4 just happened to have tagged along. Brantl's ego was writing checks his body couldn't cash and he got wrecked for it. Also the DP sucks at reporting. They are strictly enamored with their ability to create sensationalism instead of news. They write stories based on rumors, and misquote many people. The DP is supposed to be a student run organization. However the students who run this paper are spineless cowards. They would rather create news and have their story on the front page than back up their fellow students. the truth

As IFC PRESIDENT you should be very careful with your remarks. Do not employ double standards. NOTE TO MR. DALY

The Truth, The truth is: your lies about me and other alum and students are exactly the problem with these forums. Why don't you use your real name? Are you afraid? You had the audacity to say that I am not a member of the Owls. I am a former member. I have not always been known as Butte Grubman, but I can assure I was an Owl. Lets have a real debate and you can tell us all your real name. No bullshit. I want to know your name. By the way you may get a visit from the BBBHS. Butte Grubman Esq., Executive - Penn and Princeton Alum 84' and 87' New York

i can't even believe it. they should pour sulfuric acid over the people at OSC. What is this a kindergarten? The people at the OSC are the most incompetent I've seen in my life (trust me, I've seen plenty of incompetent people) la cabra, pimp ny

La cabra -- you could at least mention why you think the OSC is not doing its job. The OSC says they cannot (and they really should not) comment on anything. They are the judge and jury of student violations. Do some research before you post anything. Rajesh Mehta, student

College should be an environment for higher learning, not a playground for teenage street punks. The Owls should take "Society" out of their name, if any of them can view such anti-social activity with the levity of a mere "prank." However much money those 5 may have, it cannot buy the inner character that would distinguish them from gutter trash. LVX Green Conner, Image Consultant Georgia greenconner@lycos.com

Ilana Jerud and Gordon Bond are the hottest freshmen on campus. Just thought you might like to know. the voice of an owl

Butte Grubman. Honestly, who do you think are fooling? Anyone with half a brain can do a DP search for the Owls and see that they weren't founded until 1990. And again, Princeton doesn't have a law school. James Bond